Federal League and the 7 Negro Major Leagues in the MLB seasons pages (+4 19th century leagues?): Reply
Okumaya devam et...
← Previous revision | Revision as of 03:34, 29 April 2024 |
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| ::::::::I think you're needlessly splitting hairs. You yourself linked to MLB.com's 1914 stats page, where the Federal League is included. If MLB itself says the Federal League should be included, reference sites like BaseballReference, ESPN, and Fangraphs say the Federal League should be included, players' Hall of Fame plaques include the Federal League, baseball historians unanimously say the Federal League should be included, then who are we as measly Wikipedia editors to say "well, ''actually''..." ? | ::::::::I think you're needlessly splitting hairs. You yourself linked to MLB.com's 1914 stats page, where the Federal League is included. If MLB itself says the Federal League should be included, reference sites like BaseballReference, ESPN, and Fangraphs say the Federal League should be included, players' Hall of Fame plaques include the Federal League, baseball historians unanimously say the Federal League should be included, then who are we as measly Wikipedia editors to say "well, ''actually''..." ? |
| ::::::::There was "no such thing" as "MLB" (the organization) in 1914 for the Federal League to be "part of" anyway. As detailed in the [[Major_League_Baseball#League_organization|Wikipedia article here]], the organization called Major League Baseball didn't actually become a thing until 2000. The entire history of MLB for the 18th and 19th centuries is based on the ''concept'' of who was and was not a "major league," not the literal membership in an organized ''called'' Major League Baseball. It's all historians looking back to decide if and when a particular league as "major" or not at the time, and I think the rules of Wikipedia would strongly support aligning the articles to match the consensus of the historians, references, and the primary source itself (which you yourself linked for us). [[User:Jhn31|Jhn31]] ([[User talk:Jhn31|talk]]) 01:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC) | ::::::::There was "no such thing" as "MLB" (the organization) in 1914 for the Federal League to be "part of" anyway. As detailed in the [[Major_League_Baseball#League_organization|Wikipedia article here]], the organization called Major League Baseball didn't actually become a thing until 2000. The entire history of MLB for the 18th and 19th centuries is based on the ''concept'' of who was and was not a "major league," not the literal membership in an organized ''called'' Major League Baseball. It's all historians looking back to decide if and when a particular league as "major" or not at the time, and I think the rules of Wikipedia would strongly support aligning the articles to match the consensus of the historians, references, and the primary source itself (which you yourself linked for us). [[User:Jhn31|Jhn31]] ([[User talk:Jhn31|talk]]) 01:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC) |
| :::::::::MLB is not saying that. MLB as the primary source itself isn't even consistent. It has player stats for FL players, but if I try to lookup the standings for FL teams in 1914 & 1915, they're nowhere to be found on MLB's website. It shows the AL & NL standings from 1901–present. It doesn't show the NL standings 1876–1900 (or any other 19th century league), and well, the AL didn't exist as a major league before 1901. There was a degree of cooperation between the AL & NL from 1903 with the National Agreement. There was never any sense of cooperation between the FL and AL/NL apparatus under the National Agreement. If we’re to use the primary source (MLB.com), it would tell us that the teams that were in MLB number to 31 franchises (with the 1901–1902 Baltimore Orioles being the only inactive franchise). | |
| :::::::::Wikipedia itself plays a bit hard and loose with facts as well. [[National Association of Professional Base Ball Players]] has in its lead “…to form Major League Baseball (MLB) in 1903.” [[Major League Baseball]] has in its own page in the Organizational structure section, “There were several challenges to MLB's primacy in the sport, with notable attempts to establish competing leagues occurring during the late 1800s, from 1913 to 1915 with the short-lived Federal League, and in 1960 with the aborted Continental League.” This certainly implies they are separate, no? (Obviously, we cannot source Wikipedia for anything to put on Wikipedia, but this is emblematic that the consistency on Wikipedia regarding the aforementioned needs to be addressed). | |
| :::::::::Could I be splitting hairs? Perhaps. The more research I’ve done looking into the history, the more I’m for one of two schools of thought. If I were creating these articles from scratch, I’d do the following: | |
| :::::::::* Have unified MLB pages, only from 2000–present (with independent NL and AL pages pre-2000), or | |
| :::::::::* Don’t use the proper noun “Major League Baseball” until 2000 but using the improper “major league baseball” for all pre-2000 seasons. | |
| :::::::::** A sub-option of this, inspired from Baseball-Reference, (which may be a good compromise position), would be the status quo, but for where it says “League” in the infobox, for all pre-2000 seasons, it should say “National League”, “American League” (see exampled below for infobox changes). | |
| :::::::::But “Major League Baseball” the organization (again, as you said, and which is true), did not exist pre-2000. Baseball-reference, in my opinion, gets this partially right. There is the 2000 season page titled [https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2000.shtml 2000 Major League Baseball Team Statistics]. If you click “previous season”, the 1999 page is titled [https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1999.shtml 1999 Major League Team Statistics], where “Baseball” is missing. | |
| :::::::::As an example, here's what the top of 1999 & 2000 infoboxes look like now: | |
| :::::::::{{Infobox sports season | |
| | title = 1999 MLB season | |
| | league = [[Major League Baseball]] | |
| | sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| | duration = April 4 – October 27, 1999 | |
| | no_of_games = 162 | |
| | no_of_teams = 30 | |
| }} | |
| :::::::::{{Infobox sports season | |
| | title = 2000 MLB season | |
| | league = [[Major League Baseball]] | |
| | sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| | duration = March 29 – October 26, 2000 | |
| | no_of_games = 162 | |
| | no_of_teams = 30 | |
| }} | |
| :::::::::Here's what the top of 1999 & 2000 infoboxes could look like with the keep-combined-but-more-factual revision: | |
| :::::::::{{Infobox sports season | |
| | title = 1999 MLB season | |
| | league = [[National League (baseball)|National League]], [[American League]] | |
| | sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| | duration = April 4 – October 27, 1999 (NL)<br> | |
| April 5 – October 27, 1999 (AL) | |
| | no_of_games = 162 | |
| | no_of_teams = 16 (NL), 14 (AL) | |
| }} | |
| :::::::::Following that trend, the 1914 infobox could look like: | |
| :::::::::{{Infobox sports season | |
| | title = 2000 MLB season | |
| | league = [[Major League Baseball]] | |
| | sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| | duration = March 29 – October 26, 2000 | |
| | no_of_games = 162 | |
| | no_of_teams = 30 | |
| }} | |
| :::::::::{{Infobox sports season | |
| | title = 1914 MLB season | |
| | league = [[National League (baseball)|National League]], [[American League]], [[Federal League]] | |
| | sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| | duration = April 14 – October 13, 1914 (NL, AL)<br>April 13 – October 10, 1914 (FL) | |
| | no_of_games = 154 (NL, AL, FL) | |
| | no_of_teams = 8 (NL), 8 (AL), 8 (FL) | |
| }} | |
| :::::::::| title = 1999 MLB season | |
| :::::::::| league = [[Major League Baseball]] | |
| :::::::::| sport = [[Baseball]] | |
| :::::::::| prevseason_year = 1998 | |
| :::::::::| duration = April 4 – October 27, 1999 | |
| :::::::::| no_of_games = 162 | |
| :::::::::| no_of_teams = 30 | |
| :::::::::| TV = [[Fox Major League Baseball|Fox/FSN]], [[ESPN Major League Baseball|ESPN]], [[Major League Baseball|NBC]] | |
| :::::::::| draft = Draft | |
| :::::::::| draft_link = 1999 Major League Baseball draft | |
| :::::::::| top_pick_link = List of first overall MLB draft picks | |
| :::::::::| top_pick = [[Josh Hamilton]] | |
| :::::::::| picked_by = [[Tampa Bay Devil Rays]] | |
| :::::::::| season = Regular Season | |
| :::::::::| season_champs = | |
| :::::::::| MVP_link = Major League Baseball Most Valuable Player Award | |
| :::::::::| MVP = [[American League|AL]]: [[Iván Rodríguez]] ([[Texas Rangers (baseball)|TEX]])<br />[[National League (baseball)|NL]]: [[Chipper Jones]] ([[Atlanta Braves|ATL]]) | |
| :::::::::| playoffs_link = 1999 Major League Baseball postseason | |
| :::::::::| playoffs = Postseason | |
| :::::::::| conf1_link = 1999 American League Championship Series | |
| :::::::::| conf1 = AL | |
| :::::::::| conf1_champ = [[New York Yankees]] | |
| :::::::::| conf1_runner-up = [[Boston Red Sox]] | |
| :::::::::| conf2_link = 1999 National League Championship Series | |
| :::::::::| conf2 = NL | |
| :::::::::| conf2_champ = [[Atlanta Braves]] | |
| :::::::::| conf2_runner-up = [[New York Mets]] | |
| :::::::::| finals_link = 1999 World Series | |
| :::::::::| finals = World Series | |
| :::::::::| finals_champ = [[New York Yankees]] | |
| :::::::::| finals_runner-up = [[Atlanta Braves]] | |
| :::::::::| World_Series_MVP_link = World Series MVP Award | |
| :::::::::| World_Series_MVP = [[Mariano Rivera]] ([[New York Yankees|NYY]]) | |
| :::::::::| seasonslist = List of MLB seasons | |
| :::::::::| seasonslistnames = MLB | |
| :::::::::| prevseason_link = 1998 Major League Baseball season | |
| :::::::::| nextseason_link = 2000 Major League Baseball season | |
| :::::::::| nextseason_year = 2000 [[User:Spesh531|<b style="color:#3A58AF">Spesh531</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Spesh531|<b style="color:#58AF3A">(talk</b>]], [[Special:Contributions/Spesh531|<b style="color:#AF3A58">contrib.</b>]], [[User:Spesh531/El|<b style="color:#ADADAD">ext.)</b>]]</sup> 03:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC) | |
| == "were" vs "was" for describing former teams == | == "were" vs "was" for describing former teams == |
Okumaya devam et...